The following is from Tony Poldrugovac, form Canada. Worth reading.
Wow! What a glorious meeting we had on Dec 27 with three (yes 3) Mormon missionaries. Normally they come in twos but this time the young missionaries (Keaton Smith and Peter Dice) came with an older gentleman (Anton).
I'd like to share with you all the key points covered and some questions posed. Please feel free to give me some of your feedback.
The 3 came around 3pm and I was teamed up with a christian brother who lives just a few doors down. He primarily witnesses to Jehovah Witnesses and Muslims but I asked him to come and help out. Basically it was 3 of them against 3 of us (the Holy Spirit being the leader of our team).
From the get go, we controlled all facets of the meeting. Opening prayer, all discussion points, and most importantly the closing prayer. Glory to God!
Here are some of the topics discussed:
1. The meaning of the word "eternal".
Obviously, the Mormon missionaries could not disagree with their own definition. Excellent.
With this, we launched our first major assault.
Referring to the Book of Mormon and the Bible, we used the
I then took them back to Gospel Principles chapter 2.
3 questions: What is fulness of joy? Who created Heavenly Mother? Who did Heavenly Mother and Father received the fulness of joy from?
Stuttering on the missionaries' part. No answer. Just frustration. They were ashamed to admit that God the Father possibly has a Father himself. Really?
I then took them to Gospel Principles chapter 38 where it says that celestial marriage is required for exaltation to a God.
My question: Before Heavenly Father was married to his wife, he was not God right? After all, does he have different rules than we do? Is the gospel truth the same or is it different.
He almost hesitatingly said that Father was not God so I reminded that that you just admitted earlier that Jesus is the Eternal (everlasting God) but there was a time when Heavenly Father was just a man and not God?
We were having so much fun. It was apparent that one of the missionaries (probably the rookie) was very quiet. Throughout the entire session, he gave very little support.
I believe the Holy Spirit was speaking to his heart as he saw the 2 other more senior members basically get bombarded and frustrated by their own LDS teachings when used against them.
Then we moved to probably the most important section.
2 Nephi (25:23) - „For we labor diligently . . . to persuade our children . . . to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can doš.
I basically told the missionaries that this is different that what the Bible says. Since you can never know when you have done "all you can do", you have NO assurance of salvation.
Ephesians (2:8-9) Ų „For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boastš.
Can you work for a gift? I said no.
With Ephesians, we are 100% sure that we are saved by faith.
Then we talked about these others:
Romans (3:20) - „No one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the lawš.
Romans (9:30-33) - „What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. As it is written: See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shameš.
Jesus said, „Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting lifeš (John 6:47).
Hebrews (10:14) - „For by one offering He hath perfected forever them that are being sanctifiedš.
Jesus said to be perfect, not to become perfect.
We explained this carefully. I believe the Holy Spirit will bear some fruit here.
Onto topic 3 - Words of the living prophets
It is called "Teachings of the Living Prophets - Student Manual Religion 333".
In section 4-7, it says, "The prophet does not have to say Thus saith the Lord to give us scripture. But the Lord says of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you (D&C 21:4)".
Basically, whatever the Prophet says is scripture.
Then I took them to "Teachings of the Prophet Brigham Young", also available from www.ldscatalog.com Chapter 2, page 18 I believe. "Every ordinance, every commandment and requirement is necessary for the salvation of the human family (DBY, 152)". "The gospel of Jesus Christ encompasses a system of laws and ordinances that leads to salvation".
I reminded the missionaries that basically Brigham Young says something totally opposite to the Apostle Paul.
According to Young's criteria, NO one will be saved because no one can observe all the laws and ordinances.
I also reminded the missionaries that because they believe that marriage is an ordinance of God, single people who fail to marry will not be saved.
They were a little stunned by this ... considering that Apostle Paul suggested to the Corinthians that it would be better if they were to remain single as he was ... and also that Jesus said that some made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of God ... whoever is able to receive it let him receive it.
Now unto topic 4: the Apostasy.
I said that I heard this mentioned and took them to Gospel Principles chapter 16 page 105
"More and more error crept into Church doctrine, and soon the destruction of the Church was complete".
I asked, Who destroyed the church?
He said the devil and corrupt humans.
I took him to Matthew 16:19. Jesus said he will build his church that the gates of hell would not prevail against it.
You're telling me that the gates of hell prevailed against Christ's church, and He said they wouldn't. I would rather believe in Jesus than in you.
Have you considered that all religious groups that have come along since Jesus (Islam, Jehovah Witnesses, LDS, Reformed LDS, etc) and they basically say the same thing ... that the Bible is corrupted and that the truth needed to be restored ... all disagreeing with the words of Jesus.
They were so dense ... they were stuck on the gospel restoration.
One of the missionaries (Keaton Smith) led into 2 Thessalonians chapter 2:3-6.
This was fantastic! This is exactly where I wanted to go to. The Holy Spirit is the leader!
Question: Who is the son of perdition (man of sin) of verse 3?
They replied Satan.
Here's the punch in verse 4 - Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God".
Question: Is this a real physical temple?
They replied, I don't know.
If you don't know, how do you get your time frame right when you are talking about an apostasy.
Then I asked them, what is the culmination of this apostasy? I pointed out to them that the culmination of this total apostasy results in Jesus Christ destroying the man of sin at His Second Coming. The apostasy does NOT result in a new church being formed.
The missionary had the gall to say that humans destroy the man of sin "within each of us", but I told him that you are saying something not found in this section of Thessalonians.
Since you cannot reveal this man of sin or the identity of this temple, you cannot identify the time of this apostasy.
I think LDS also teach that there was a complete and total apostasy of the true church. Nothing less that such an event would warrant the foundation of the LDS Church.
I could have had more fun with them by taking them to 3 Nephi 28:1-8 and D&C 7:1-8.
3 Nephi 28:1-8 basically talks about 3 Nephite witnesses that never died and remained on the earth. Hence you cannot have a total apostasy.
D&C 7:1-8 is even more damaging. It says that the Apostle John (Isle Patmos John) never died. He would remain until the coming of Jesus Christ ... continuing to preach the true gospel.
Have a look at verse 3 - "And the Lord said unto me: Verily, verily, I say unto thee, because thou desirest this thou shalt tarry until I come in my glory, and shalt prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues and people.
We just ran out of time to cover these final amusing points. You cannot have a total apostasy when the Apostle of John is preaching before all these people until Jesus returns.
Anyway, we reminded them again of Jesus' promise in Matthew 16:18.
I closed with a final prayer that basically said that we should not rely on feelings to determine the truth but rather search the scriptures like the Bereans did ... because feelings can be deceptive ... and I used those words.
The 2 young missionaries were heard to say Amen. The oldest missionary (mid 40) did not say Amen.
With that they departed. They really wanted to get out of our house, but we kept them there for about 3.5 hours. Until 6:30 pm.
We had such a great time and we pray that the Holy Spirit WILL bear fruit in their souls.
They gave us a Book of Mormon (Why?) before they left. We will pray that God will give us an opportunity to see them again. We have their names and phone number. Maybe that Book of Mormon will be the hook that gets us back into their home.
They even invited us to come to their ward to ask any questions.
To be honest with you, with the Holy Ghost on our side, I feel like going on their own turf and taking the battle to them.
Maybe you have some words of caution before we proceed to do so ... but I feel the Holy Ghost will give us protection, guidance, and boldness as he did yesterday.